Archbishop André-Joseph Léonard will be co-hosting with Cardinal Christoph Schönborn the visionary Marija Pavlovic and Fr Marinko Sakota parish priest of St James, Medjugorje, in St Stephen Cathedral Vienna, Austria, on the 29th of September 2015 ahead of a pending Vatican meeting and announcement on the Medjugorje Phenomenon.
The move by the two famous primates throws aside rumours that Fr Marinko was given restrictions for the visionaries by the Vatican and stands as a powerful witness of support for Medjugorje before the Ruini Commission and Pope Francis.
The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith requires that events with Medjugorje visionaries cannot be permitted if they ‘presume the authenticity’ of the apparitions. This event is titled ‘Prayer for Peace, Message for you’ and on the program there are no mention of apparitions.
A feria quarter will be held soon in the Vatican where cardinals and bishops can discuss the suggestions for action on the Medjugorje Phenomenon. The findings of the Ruini Commission aren’t fully known. Sources from the Vatican informed us however there are restrictions being recommended to Pope Francis and that there have been prelates (outside of the commission) who are pushing for restrictions.
Cardinal Schonborn has invited Archbishop Leonard of Belgium to join him as they host the visionary Marija and the Parish priest Fr Marinko precisely around the time of the feria quarta (that Cardinal Schonborn and possibly Mgr Leonard will be attending) making it clear that discussions about possible restrictions on the visionaries may not be so straightforward.
A canon lawyer informs us ‘This is a slick move they’ve made – whether they meant to or not it’s essentially put the Vatican in stalemate. They are both hierarchical giants coming together from two different -dare I say opposing- wings in the Church joining forces in support of Medjugorje. If the Vatican intends on restricting the visionaries this makes it very complicated for them now with such hierarchal support. They effectively are standing as two pillars protecting Medjugorje. Canonically speaking a cardinal is able to override and invite whom he likes in his diocese, he effectively is a pope of his own ecclesial territory and with the added support of Mgr Leonard they are showing those who want the Medjugorje visionaries to be silenced that it wont be as easy as they think. Our Lady has her secret weapons…’
Admittedly, the two internationally recognised prelates – although holding territories close by- seemingly come from two different ends of the catholic spectrum. Cardinal Schonborn was criticised this week by Catholic Herald and Lifesitenews.com for his recent liberal views he expressed on homosexuality and in the past he was blasted by conservative Catholics for the famed ‘balloon mass’. Whilst in direct contrast Archbishop Leonard has been loathed by modernists for implementing in Belgium the Tridentine Mass and the traditional priesthood the FSSP, has been ‘charged with homophobia’ and attacked by ‘gay-rights’ activists after citing homosexual acts were “abnormal” – to which he responded “I might face imprisonment in a few years, but it could offer me a much needed vacation.”
The two prelates coming from two different positions to support Medjugorje puts aside debate and makes it difficult for the Medjugorje phenomenon to be labelled under any so-called ‘wing’ of Catholicism.
Both prelates also have strong standing in the Vatican. Archbishop Leonard preached the 1999 Lenten retreat for Pope John Paul II and the Roman Curia and Cardinal Schonborn was made Member of the Education Congregation by Pope Francis in 2013 as well as already being a member of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.
Recently Rorate Caeli and Gianluca Bavile spread reports that the Vatican has restricted the visionaries since the parish priest Fr Marinko took a decision himself to place restrictions in Medjugorje. Soon after the reports were spread, they were found to be denied by the CDF and as of now the Vatican has taken no action.
Mgr Leonard is also a well known to be highly conservative and described by Vatican Insider Andrea Tornielli as ‘the most traditional prelate in Belgium’. Rorate Caeli meanwhile has appraised Mgr Leonard for his efforts to restore traditional liturgy, calling him ‘a breathing space for orthodoxy’ and complaining his resignation was approved at ‘record speed’ and it’s ‘equally unfortunate that Mgr Leonard is stepping down without being made Cardinal’.
Rorate Caeli has also claimed ‘truly traditional Catholics need no convincing of the false claims of Medjugorje’ Yet Archbishop Leonard will host the visionary Marija Pavlovic on 29th September.
Mgr Leonard recently challenged opponents of Medjugorje saying that books that attack Medjugorje lead him to believe and whilst he agrees with some criticisms he highlights that one can pick out problems in all human affairs but there are ‘fundamentals and accidentals’. For Mgr Leonard it was clear the fundamental elements of Medjugorje are good and he warned opposition of having a ‘polemical tone that does not seem to be in place.’ He refuted arguments that conversions can happen where ever prayer takes place saying ‘“that logic that does not seem to me to be completely correct” explaining “there are many other places in the world where there is prayer, where there is confession, where Eucharist is celebrated, but there are not the same kind of evident fruits!”
Archbishop Leonard reached world fame in 2013 when he prayed for ‘gay-rights’ FEMEN activists whilst they doused him with water and shouted at him – the event was broadcast by international media.
In 2013 the National Medjugorje Movement took a group from the UK to the Holy Land led by Fr Gianni Sgreva CP, Founder of the Oasis of Peace community, where we met and spent the week with Archbishop Leonard and the visionary Vicka Ivankovic who had her apparitions daily in his presence (images below).
Thank God for Andre-Joseph Leonard!
It is interesting though to speak of obedience, as I think of that third secret of Fatima has never been truly revealed as was supposed to and was supposed to be revealed no later than 1960 (obedience?) along with actually being revealed by the appropriate hierarchy in Portugal. Lucia stated emphatically for so many years – 1) Our Lady wanted the consecration of Russia (not the world) to Her Immaculate Heart (Russia was named specifically for a particular reason, which in part was so that communism would not spread over the entire earth…think it hasn’t spread, even into this country…it has), and then 2) this was to be done with all the bishops of the world (that part was never done). In part, doing the appropriate consecration was to help spread throughout the world the beautiful Sacred Heart of Jesus along with the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Has that happened? I don’t think so. This along with prayer and penance, and making five first Saturdays (think that still exists in most places?). When you look at this issue, it almost seems as though Fatima is being forgotten, as well as Lourdes, LaSalette, and even Our Lady of Good Success. How about the new approved one at Lipa where Our Mother is exuding oils since being declared Mediatrix…how interesting. I had read many years ago that at Medjugorje, the children initially thought it was the devil that came, not the Mother of God. As far as fruits are concerned, the kind caring, goodness, and humility of people will always be heard by our dearest Lord in one way or another. After all, He is very compassionate and merciful. Well, time will tell and the truth will come out.
Most peaceful place on Earth.Visited off and.on
For over 10 years I have met over 200 hundred
People. Who have come there and returned. 7
More times..I was motivated to write my book
Sharing Gods Greatest secret with chikdren
Around the world..www shepherdboycreations.com. plus keepsake
For Children to learn more about there faith
And everything to know about the blessed Mother.. Mary…. Medjugorje enhance my
Spiritual life..and a Stronger understanding. Of
The Mother of God…go there if you can u will
Love and want to go back
ALL genuine work of GOD and the Holy Spirit (like Medjugorje) is always opposed by “negative forces”. But GOD ALWAYS WINS !!! Praise HIM !!!
even the Blessed Virgin Mary was obedient. anyway I know nothing evil can pass the Vatican test
Mirjana and the pope:http://www.medjugorje.com.br/se-nao-fosse-papa-ja-estaria-em-medjugorje-confessando/
The virtue of obedience is one of the greatest indicators for determining the authenticity of alleged apparitions. According to the Saints, it is the only virtue the devil cannot imitate (who, by his nature, is disobedient), and is therefore the hallmark of authentic apparitions. The Medjugorje children clearly have disobeyed the local Bishop from the start. And at authentic apparitions like Lourdes and Fatima the children entered religious life and never prospered financial wealth from the apparitions.
Please, go there. Please see it by yourself. Please do not be a pharisee. I can witness healings, conversions, changes in over a thousand people (I have worked there as a pilgrimage guide for years). Please, see it with your own eyes.
Joan asks a good question, that many ask…What to make of this drtaamic conversion story then?To Joan and others who wonder such things, consider that God will turn every evil into something good – we will not necessarily know of it or see it in our life time. Hence, even an inauthentic apparition can be used by Him to do good things. This does not mean the Church should let it continue…At my core, while I no longer believe in the authenticity of Medjugorje, I do believe that Our Lady has been taking good advantage of the situation and making great things happen for some people, most especially the innocent – those who are not connected to falsifications of any kind and are seeking to please God through this phenomena.I’ll go so far as to say that, if it is inauthentic, it will be condemned by Holy Mother Church when the Blessed Mother influences the Church as such. It won’t end when we want, but when she wants, and in the way that she wants. Medjugorje is the confession capital of Europe. But, fruits like these do not authenticate anything. In fact, no good fruit can be examined to the exclusion of bad fruits (and there are plenty that would astonish folks if they knew. . He has mass chaos in his backyard and Medjugorje is intimately intertwined, even if only indirect.For other chaos brought upon by the local Franciscans and associates, (the “punishment brought upon the order was not by the bishop, but from the Father General in Rome, and the Holy See itself, not the local bishop. When people criticize the bishop for the discipline which has befallen on certain priests, they are criticizing the Church herself.There is literally “the Church” and a type of “pseudo-Church” in the area and many outsiders wouldn’t know it. Medjugorje is basically a “front” for all of this. Just read documents out of the diocese, such as the second link I provided and you will see. The Vatican has been active, systematically disciplining individual Franciscans for many years out of that province.No matter how many conversion, confessions, Communions, fastings, processions, or even good works are taking place, the Church cannot cave in with consequentialism and permit it to continue if she has evidence that it is inauthentic. Most especially – a Church under Pope Benedict – the greatest enemy of relativism, consequentialism, materialism, and many other “ism’s!”
The interesting thing in this article is that there is no claim that “the Holy See really approves of Medjugorje” and now it is clear the Medjugorje movement is consciously favoring resistance to the Catholic Church and its leigitimate authority from God to make determination and set discipline about this. The devil knows how to weaponize devotion to the alleged “Gospa” of Medjugorje.
A Good and truthful comment Elizabeth. In Christ.
Joan asks a good question, that many ask…What to make of this daatrmic conversion story then?To Joan and others who wonder such things, consider that God will turn every evil into something good – we will not necessarily know of it or see it in our life time. Hence, even an inauthentic apparition can be used by Him to do good things. This does not mean the Church should let it continue…At my core, while I no longer believe in the authenticity of Medjugorje, I do believe that Our Lady has been taking good advantage of the situation and making great things happen for some people, most especially the innocent – those who are not connected to falsifications of any kind and are seeking to please God through this phenomena.I’ll go so far as to say that, if it is inauthentic, it will be condemned by Holy Mother Church when the Blessed Mother influences the Church as such. It won’t end when we want, but when she wants, and in the way that she wants. Medjugorje is the confession capital of Europe. But, fruits like these do not authenticate anything. In fact, no good fruit can be examined to the exclusion of bad fruits (and there are plenty that would astonish folks if they knew. . He has mass chaos in his backyard and Medjugorje is intimately intertwined, even if only indirect.For other chaos brought upon by the local Franciscans and associates, (the “punishment brought upon the order was not by the bishop, but from the Father General in Rome, and the Holy See itself, not the local bishop. When people criticize the bishop for the discipline which has befallen on certain priests, they are criticizing the Church herself.There is literally “the Church” and a type of “pseudo-Church” in the area and many outsiders wouldn’t know it. Medjugorje is basically a “front” for all of this. Just read documents out of the diocese, such as the second link I provided and you will see. The Vatican has been active, systematically disciplining individual Franciscans for many years out of that province.No matter how many conversion, confessions, Communions, fastings, processions, or even good works are taking place, the Church cannot cave in with consequentialism and permit it to continue if she has evidence that it is inauthentic. Most especially – a Church under Pope Benedict – the greatest enemy of relativism, consequentialism, materialism, and many other “ism’s!”
I disagree. The Medjugorje visionaries are 100% in compliance with the mandates placed on them by Rome. They may not like it, but they humbly obey.
The phrase “resistance to the Catholic Church and its legitimate authority” seems to imply the Archbishop and Cardinal are doing something illegitimate. Both have very high ranking in the Church and consider power. When someone legitimately exercises their legitimate authority that is not resistance to “legitimate authority.” Precisely, what are you saying they are doing illegitimately?
They are hosting individuals who have disobeyed two successive bishops of Mostar, their local bishops, for over thirty years. If you disobey the bishop in such matters then you have disobeyed the church’s authority. There is no such thing as a disobedient visionary. Both Bishops ordered (as is their duty ) the six individuals not to have their “visions” in public. They were also requested not to promote their alleged visions. They are consistently and actively disobeying the church and now also the C.D.F. who has been instrumental in cancelling their appearences in the U.S and Italy. Fr. John Hardon (Servant of God) warned of Medjugorje when he said that no genuine visionary ever promoted their own visions. Our Lady never demands that people “believe ” or spread her “messages”. She simply proved without a doubt that she was appearing by giving a miraculous sign that the church (Local Bishop) could test. She didn’t rely on the visionaries either “to preach the message” Lucia, Francisco, Jacinta and Bernadette were gone within a couple of years of the events and never preached to crowds. Our Lady convinced the people and the bishops, not the visionaries.
Please cite a reference for the claim the Bishops ordered them not to have their “visions” in public, the specific years, etc.
Exactly – Annie. This is what I try to tell defenders all the time – The Holy Virgin didn’t expect genuine visionaries to jet set around the world. These defenders insist that it is neccessary to spread the messages and Bernadette and the Fatima three couldn’t because there were no airplanes.
Very true – there weren’t and technology of course was poor in terms of communication i.e telephones. But despite these constraints the Fatima and Lourdes messages reached the whole world and it begs the question, in an age of such advanced technology where the messages of Our Lady can reach us within seconds on the internet – one has to ask , why do these visionaries have to travel all over the world and put on a show called apparitions on demand? Bernadette and the children of Fatima could have traveled on a sea voyage, and/or travelled around their own countries but they didn’t. Sister Lucia could have traveled in the 1950s/60s/70s when air travel was becoming popular at an age when she was fit for travel but she opted not to.
And the attitudes of these 4 people, Bernadettte, Lucia , Francisco and Jacinta following their appartions is testament to their authencity: Bernadette lost all interest in this world – she said if you saw Her, you would die to see her again. Lucia demonstrated a similar focus on Heaven by becoming a carmelite nun and on a brief convalescence with a family in 1932 changed her name and she like Francisco and Jacinta were so horrified at the vision of Hell , they did everything they could to make sure they didn’t end up there and sought to save others to by strict penance and fasting. Francisco knew he was going to die so decided not to bother with reading or schooling
Regarding travel, The Flying Nun went where ever needed, but nuns from American situation comedies are not cloistered, at least not thus far. By definition, a cloistered nun has very restricted contact with the outside world. So what matters is not if Lucia could sit in a jet or catch a breeze with her cornette, the limiting factor is permission from her superiors.
Regarding presence, should Eucharist exposition be internet only to save people the trip, what about the Mass?
Pertaining to attitude, there is a perennial problem of people putting their own apostate on a pedestal. See 1 Corinthians 12 regarding different kinds of gifts and services, but the same Lord. Grace is not auto-magic with one effect. Grace is given to a specific person at a specific place during a specific period for a specific purpose. Of the 4, 18, 4 visionaries at Kibeho, Knock, Pontmain, respectively, how many entered the religious life? Probably some, but probably not all. Or instead of Vatican approved, how about a Coptic approved such as Zeitun, with a visionary count in the millions. Did all entered the religious life?
A simplest cookie-cutter outlook, restricted to two apparitions, is pedantic. God doesn’t clone visionaries. While well-intentioned, Eimeara arguments (which are by no means novel) simply do not hold water.
Hello Eimeara (this is actually a response to your October 19th post, but that Reply button was inoperable.)
First the facts: a) Juan Diego spent about 25 years taking care of pilgrims, retelling his story countless times, b) Bernadette did something similar. The quote from the October 8th post was from page 210 of Saint Bernadette Soubirous by Abbe Francois Trochu. The time span was much shorter (a few years under various circumstances), but Bernadette also told her apparition story to numerous pilgrims.
Preach means “to publicly proclaim or teach a religious message or belief”. A phrase like “give witness” is better verbiage here, but it is still “preaching.”
The money dimension is more complex (see http://www.mediatrixmedia.org/essays/morethanquestionable.html) but it is related to the “fame and publicity” objection. The theology of “the love of money is the root of all evil” is based on a morally neutral object (money) and its abuse (the love of). Fame and publicity are also morally neutral; though as with money, they can be abused.
You are attempting to give a proof by example, which immediately fails because counter-examples exists. God is free to grant riches, fame, publicity or whatever and to whomever He wants.
If a seer would literally reject all publicity, they wouldn’t give their account even once. This portion of the argument is based on frequency, which God is the arbitrator of as of all things.
However, the more serious error deals what has been dubbed the “Francis Factor” which is the fact that holiness attracts. When “Heaven comes down,” there is concomitant grace that attracts people to the seers and almost always to the site. If the seers are not available, they will still come to the site and keep coming, though fervor without nurture can be stifled and eventually be eradicate the initial concomitant grace.
The Medjugorje visionaries are still receiving messages. This concomitant grace is still actively at work in them because their mission to spread the message is still active. Their role, if anything, is more important than ever. Any and all attempts to hinder and/or prohibit the visionaries from fulfilling their mission is exactly that.
And hence, without good reason, no one has the right to do that. For if no rational reason can be given as an objection, it is irrational to object. Now granted, humans are often confused, foolish and blinded because of various factors. But if they refuse to receive correction, they are uncorrectable.
Eimeara, this charge isn’t being levied at you, but your argument still doesn’t hold water. However, a cup of water will be offer as you are a brother (inclusive gender intended).
The CDF letter of October 2013 is not a blanket prohibition: it is based on a conditional clause, subject to interpretation per situation. Regarding the first instance of Ivan in the USA, when notified of the Bishop’s decision, he obeyed, as on the subsequent occasions. This is called obedience, not disobedience. For remaining claims, without specific details, it is useless to discuss. However, history is clear that Cardinal Ratzinger rejected Bishop Zanic’s negative decision, transferring the authority to all regional Bishops. Now, if the visionaries’ disobedience is so blatant and its import so unequivocal, as being alleged, why wasn’t Medjugorje condemned in 1991? Is the Church stupid?
Bernadette indeed preached to the crowds: “In the course of the year 1859, there were days and even long periods when the number of visitors she had to endure, together with her own ill-health and exhaustion, caused her to miss school.” Her witness only ended because her cloister superiors thought it was best for her sanctity. From the 2nd apparition, Jacinta and Francisco knew their time was short and acted accordingly. Lucia’s mission was to spread the message from the cloister, which she did, to the degree permitted, her writings include two volumes of memoirs and “Calls from the Message of Fatima.” Acts 4:20 – We cannot but speak about what we have seen and heard. Finally, positive witness is “promotion.” If Fr. John Hardon said that and it was the only criteria for his sainthood, it would be a lost cause. But the Church isn’t stupid, nor misinformed.
(please note that this is not to imply that annie is stupid as her reasoning demonstrates otherwise, but misinformed finds some application here)
Sorry, Mediatrix but my arguments do hold water, I never said that visionaries have to be nuns or priests what I am saying that they should shun the limelight. Mariette Beco of Banneux never became a nun but didn’t like publicity and went incognito to the Grotto. The Beauraing , Guadelupe and Knock visionaries were not bragging about their apparitions or making money out of them. I make the point that even before Lucia became a nun she and her cousins made an effort to avoid pilgrims and Bernadette most certainly did not preach to pilgrims – she hid from them also. Did you not read the point i made that Lucia, when on convalesence leave in 1932 stayed with a family under a different name? And also when she moved to boarding school also used a different name and was forbidden to speak of the apparitions? No seer has to be a nun or priest but they should reject all fame and publicity.
Your arguments still do not hold water . As for Juan Diego, I have done research on him and there is very little infomration on him. Yes, he lived in a hermitage and yes he took care of the church and pilgrims. But there is nothing to say that he preached to the crowds about his heavenly visits . He could have changed his name /identity. Whatever he did or didn’t do is lost in the past 5 centuries. Bernadette did have visitors to her home and often she couldn’t do anything about this but she did not put herself up for speaking tours or arrange to speak in churches wherever. She would run to a neighbours house to hide and when the basilica was built – agreed to the priest’s request that she walk in the procession but insisted that other girls walk with her. It is not possible to avoid all publicity I agree – such as police and church interrogations but the message will still get out through priests. The message can be written by visionaries and placed in a church or sent to a newspaper without them addressing crowds.
Just came across some tholiegocal observations on the Debra Movement and the Magnificat Meal Movement. I’ve never heard of either, but the commentary “Principles on Discernment of spirits” was most interesting. It quoted from Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange’s book, “The Three Ages of the Interior Life” [should that be Stages?] which lists the evil effects of having a desire for revelation being at least a venial sin, even when the soul has a good end in view. He writes: “St. John of the Cross strongly reproves the desire for revelations. On this point he is incomplete accord with St. Vomcent Ferrer, and shows that the soul desiring revelations is vain; that by this curiosity it gives the devil the opportunity to lead it astray; that this inclination takes away the purity of faith, produces a hindrance for the spirit, denotes a lack of humility and exposes it to many errors…All this clearly shows the error of imprudent directors who, impelled by curiosity, are concerned with souls favored by visions and revelations. This curiosity is a deformation of spirit which casts the soul into illusion and trouble, and turns it away from humility through vain complacency in extraordinary ways.”St. John of the Cross concludes his chapter on this subject with the following: “The devil rejoices greatly when a soul seeks after revelations and is ready to accept them; for such conduct furnishes him with many opportunities of insinuating delusions, and derogating from the Faith as much as he possibly can; for such a soul becomes rough and rude, and falls frequently into many temptations and unseemly habits.” (Ascent of Mt Carmel, Book 2, chapter 11)The commentary concludes: The above texts, fruit of multi-secular experience, show that the prince of darkness is an expert at telling us something is very wrong, and then gradually making us do the very thing. He knows how to divert the attention on something else while he makes us do that very thing.Something to think about!